Sep
30
Inside Green Room | 100 Top Internet Marketers Exposed
Filed Under Internet Marketing, Social and Political
I recently had the pleasure of attending Eben Pagan’s "Green Room" a secret gathering of 100 elite among the top internet marketing movers and shakers. As I rubbed elbows with my old friends like Mike Filsaime, Stephen Pierce, Ben Mack, Alex Mandossian, Dave Lakhani, Jeff Walker, Jason Moffatt, Ryan Kaltman, Joel Comm, Harris Fellman, Tom Beal, Keith Wellman, Gary Ambrose, Brad Fallon, Tellman and others you’ll no doubt recognize…
…and even more people who I’ve never heard of, like one guy who’s spending $150,000 a DAY on his adwords ads (so I think he probably knows a thing or two)… or a call center owner who has an amazing close ratio…
something became glaringly obvious to me…
I was the only girl there.
Yep, in a rush to get 100 of the top marketers to the event, Eben had forgotten the women.
it’s important to note, I wasn’t originally invited by Eben directly, my friend Ben Mack weaseled me in with some strong words of suggestion.
Ok, before I go further,I’ll confess to two things. First, I don’t know if Eben invited any women that chose not to attend. If so, big mistake on their part. Second, I wasn’t the "only" women there. There were 4 more. Two Eben employees, one bartender and a wife. Which may go to explaining a little bit of the reception I got at the event.
"Who are you here with?" was the most common first question I was asked by a stranger. Yep, as if I couldn’t have possibly been there on my own, like they were expecting me to be a wife or employee… or cocktail waitress 
But mostly, they just ignored me. They would say hi or introduce themselves to all the men in a group I was standing in, then with much discomfort and pointedness, their eyes would just float over my head, never making eye contact, to go onto the next person. It was surreal.
Even Eben Pagan himself, when he went up to speak for a few minutes at lunch, addressed the group "gentlemen and gentlemen"… I was sitting within easy eyesight of him.
Check out this interaction. I’m still laughing about it.
One guy’s opening line to me was "are you an internet marketer?"
As I glared at him, with my best sneer, I just said, "of course"
He said, "I don’t mean to be sexist but…"
Me: "Then don’t"
He apparently enjoyed this verbal berating, because he sat down next to me and proceeded to enjoy an additional hour of it. Several times I advised him, "when you find yourself at the bottom of a hole, the first rule of survival is Stop Digging". He just laughed, then told me I was the most interesting person he had met that weekend, and that I had demonstrated enough worth now that he was interested in knowing more about me.
I kid you not… he said I had demonstrated enough worth.
I asked him if he had made all of the other marketers in the room jump through the same hoops. His words said yes as his face told the real truth… of course not.
I’m still laughing at this…
Someone else (I forget exactly who right now) and said, "I was thinking about what I could share with a group of the smartest guys on the Internet"
Now, I’ll admit, I’m more "one of the guys" then most of the guys are… but still… I was amused.
Thankfully, I’m not the sort of feminist that just gets pissed off. Quite the contrary, I find it empowering. There’s a whole lot of room to grow, and I’m here to lead the growth.
Watch out boys, my lipstick brigade is on the march! 
My friends that know me didn’t exhibit a moment of surprise at seeing me in the room (thank you, and I love you too). Many of them did execute this very curious maneuver. While introducing me to someone new, they’d say, "This is Donna Fox, she’s an excellent marketer in her own right"
That expression, "in her own right" was so curious to me. It’s mysticism was enhanced by the number of times it was used this weekend. It seemed like all my friends had read from the same script. "uh-oh, there’s a woman in the room, better figure out what I’m going to say nice about her… here it is, on page 27 of the manual, "introduce the female comrade by sharing her name and that she’s in the same position as you are, praising her performance. Be sure to hedge the compliment with the words "in her own right".
Seriously, this expression was so curious to me I did a little research on it.
I found the expression first used with respect to royalty. A queen "in her own right" was a queen who’s position on the throne was due to her own royal bloodline and not that of her husband.
The Latin, which is also used in legal documents, is "suro jure". It can be used for both sexes, as in "in his own right" but because of the way society works, it rarely is. Usually it’s the female that’s the exception to the rule. It’s amazing that phrases like this still exist in our regular speech patterns.
My friends were saying I’m excellent because of me, not because I’m riding the coat-tails of someone else’s brilliance. So, I guess that’s good. A wonderful thought really, but it’s necessity saddens me.
The last story I have to share came from a conversation with Andy Jenkins of StomperNet.com Andy was talking about the allegations he’s heard that Stomper was sexist. This really bothers him. He talked about the female staff and how much he admires them. He talked about the fact that 35% of Stomper members are female.
Once again, a misguided thought. 35% female membership indicates to me that your product is good enough many women ignore the fact that the marketing isn’t directed to them and join. Truly effective, gender-neutral marketing should statistically show 51% female (even more really, since 70% of all new businesses are female-owned).
Andy and I had a good talk. He recognizes the problem with the under-representation of women, and just doesn’t know what to do about it. We talked about a number of suggestions that I really hope he implements.
In fact, that’s the impression I got from most of the men. They want the women involved. They think of us like their wives, mothers, sisters, daughters, and truly do want us to be successful. They look around and wonder where the women all are. They find it amazing that they don’t see any. They literally don’t SEE us! Because out of site is out of mind.
It’s kind of a vicious circle. Women aren’t invited in because they aren’t top of mind. If they aren’t top of mind they aren’t seen. Literally aren’t seen. I mean, they aren’t right in front of the men.
So it takes a very progressive male to intentionally include a woman in the inner circle. It takes a Ben Mack to advocate on your behalf. It takes the promoters like Eben to ask the question, not "who are the top internet marketers"… but "Who are the top FEMALE internet marketers who should be included?" We are out there, many of us, making millions.
Sounds like affirmative action, doesn’t it? there’s one slight difference. Affirmative action is forcing behavior in the hopes that values will change. I’d much rather see a change in values followed by a demand for consistent behavior.
And based on the comments of the wonderful men I conntected with this weekend, I think we’re about to start seeing that.
Readers, who are the progressive thinking men in your lives? If you’re a progressive man, let us know, and thanks for your support!
Be inspired,
Donna
Donna Fox is an Internet Marketer, focusing on Marketing to Women Strategies. She believes that effective selling to women comes from not selling, but creating an environment with your design and language to encourage buying.
Comments
78 Responses to “Inside Green Room | 100 Top Internet Marketers Exposed”
Donna –
You are a power to be reckoned without regard to gender!
Stephanie Bell the Spirit Coach
http://twitter.com/SpiritCoach
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Donna Fox Reply:
September 30th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Thank you
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Hey Donna,
Really great post, most guys do not seem to see a woman as an equal but as a subordinate that is in public, things change behind closed doors.
All the best,
Steve
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Donna Fox Reply:
September 30th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
I’m not sure I’d say most guys see a woman as a subordinate. At least not consciously.
A big part of writing this post was to celebrate those men that want the “boy’s club” to include women to.
My overall sense was this was an enlightened group that wants to change.. they just aren’t sure how.
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As one of the guys that commented to you “wow, you’re the only woman here” and even had some discussion with you about this, I somehow find myself disagreeing with something you said at the end of your post…
Okay - if this was truly an invitation of the ‘top 100 internet marketers’ (which it wasn’t quite that anyway); then *why* should we do the affirmative action pull?
Why shouldn’t it just be “the top internet marketers” period.
The truth is, it was the ‘top 100 or so internet marketers that Eben & some friends could think of at the time’.
The spirit of the meeting was a networking event with other top marketers (people that had reached a certain level of success & notoreity I suppose).
What if Eben would have invited the “Top 20 Female Internet Marketers”??
I’m not sure that even *you* could name 20 “Top Female Marketers” (I can’t think of more than perhaps 7 or 8 myself.)
So these “Top 20″ females get a pass to come to the party - and then, what happens? They’re not as respected and not as well-regarded because they don’t truly ‘deserve’ to be there.
And Donna, that just might screw it up for you (and the 7 or 8 female marketers that should’ve been there, too).
Harris
P.S. Not sure if you met Charla at the event or not. Even though she & her husband ran a company together, she seemed to be more than ‘just a wife’. Seemed to be a good businesswoman - in her own right, too.
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Donna Fox Reply:
September 30th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
I totally agree affirmative action in the way you defined doesn’t help anyone. That was kinda the point I made at the end (although not as well as you did) about not wanting action for the sake of action, but thought first and action that follows.
I completely agree with you that the people who were there were “‘top 100 or so internet marketers that Eben & some friends could think of at the time’.”
which is why I carefully phrased my suggestion to be to ask the question “Who are the top FEMALE internet marketers who should be included?”
See, the decision is still based on merit.
As for screwing it up for me, Yanik Silver said it best. He said to me, “hey, how’s it feel to be in the 2% (of women invited)
I said, “I kinda like those odds”
He said, “The odds would still have been good if you were in the 9 or 10%”
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Marc Smith Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 3:29 am
Harris~ I think that your comment that these were the top 100 that Eben and friends could think of at the time. I guess that’s the point. There’s no quantifiable measure of the Top 100 with a list. It was a subjective list created by the host and friends.
That being said, I think Donna makes an excellent point when she says couldn’t the question also be asked,OK, who are some of the top women who could be on this list.
I find it incredibly difficult to believe that that the answer would be “none”.
Look, I’m no expert. I’m pretty new to IM, and probably am closer to the bottom 100 right now. But, I learn a lot from fantastic women and men marketers.
Thanks for this post Donna. I think you’re taking some people out of their comfort zone, and that’s always a good thing for change and growth.
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OH Donna dear you had me chuckling throughout! Luv your style chica, “in your own right” LOL!!!
Top of mind guy in my mind who had me speaking for his events way back before I spoke for ANY internet marketer’s events like Mike Filesaime was Stephen Pierce.
They say you’ll always remember your 1st, and by far Stephen Pierce was THE first successful internet marketers to see where I was going in the internet marketing world, because he simply took the time to do a little due diligence, and discover the power and position I wielded in the business world. Smart dude.
Next there was Paulie Sabol, YOU, Mike Filesaime and Tom Beal who had me at the Internet Marketing Main Event. Results from attendee raving about it as their favorite event speaks for itself.
Then in my persuasion niche, it was Dave Lakhani and Kevin Hogan who recognized how quickly I rose to being “top of mind” in our industry/field - both online AND offline. Doing some killer things with both of these business dudes. Both great men - successful online as much as offline.
In the blogging world, there’s Dave Taylor, Dave Cynkin and Rick Calvert from The Vegas Blog World Expo which takes things beyond the internet marketing only world into the real world of business, politics and beyond. Powerful movers & shakers who I’m thrilled to be connected with.
So the men who are actually Looking for power women to speak are finding them - easily. Anyone who doesn’t know where we are - can’t be considered a real internet marketer if he doesn’t know where to look to know who the women who ARE top of mind for many powerful movers & shakers.
The ones who do - are finding increasingly better results because they’re bringing women on their team to give them the critical feedback in order to attract all the women who are doing business on the internet - very successfully, I might add - like Lynn Terry who instantly comes to mind.
@CoachDeb
http://TribalSeduction.com
http://BLOGi360.com
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Donna Fox Reply:
September 30th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Thanks Deb for highlighting so many wonderful, supporting and progressive business men.
You make a beautiful point about the men who are looking for powerful and influential women are easily able to find them.
I think part of the difficulty here is even in the definition of “top” or “success” or even “power”.
For example, is someone like GrammerGirl a top marketer? I’d say so. She’s got a wildly popular podcast and has been on Oprah with her book… a success few marketers in our world have achieved. But she’s not raking in the cash (at least not that I’m aware of).
Then there’s Tila Tequilla. She parlayed her internet marketing on MySpace into a television show.
For sure, if the true TOP female internet marketers were counted, I’m not sure I’d be on that list! LOL
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@CoachDeb Reply:
September 30th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
LOL!
very good points but I think success definition is in the hands of the beholder - based on who’s in their circle of friends.
If they’re not following these power women on Twitter - how Could they be “top of mind”?!
As for GrammarGirl who was on Oprah - I’d bet good $$$$ that NO ONE in that room of “top internet marketers” were Ever on Oprah!
I remember Stephen Pierce being impressed that I was on TV as a Coach, and said something that made a HUGE impact on how I utilized that piece of information from that point forward.
So perhaps - women are simply uncomfortable “singing their praises” and therefore, men aren’t seeing their “worth” (proving value as that 1 dude said to you)
I could go on and on here about this and how WOMEN keep each other back… but then I’d Really be ticking off HArris! :))
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Patricia Kagwiria Makhulo Reply:
October 5th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
I have read with great interest your posts and I agree with your thoughts and opinions whole heartedly. It drives me batty to see the men on the internet knowing full well we women are holding the ecomomy in the palm of our hands. I am not anti men at all. No I am just pro women learning to get a hold of that financial future. We owe it to ourselves. I am glad to have found a soul mate in this matter.
I agree that men on the internet are sexist. I get a lot of calls from my videos from men who fail to see it as marketing, all they see is a woman, None of my male counterparts ever get that type of treatment and when I complain I am often told that is the nature of the game. Well that is poppy cock if you ask me.
P.S. Nancy Sutherland aka the direct sales marketing queen says hello. She told me all about you!
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I keep hearing stories about how this or that stopped working.. might be due to this kind of thinking. Instead of broadening their sources, they keep going back to their little club.
Could it be that the answers for growing in the future won’t come from the same thinking of the past?
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Donna Fox Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 9:48 am
Reminds me recently I keep hearing people talking about how much more simple things “used to be”.
Are we all so resistant to change we want to go back to a time before iphones and disposable diapers?
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Progressive thinking men in my life? Seems like I have several of them, my husband David, totaly supports me in my business, he does the stuff in the background so I can cultivate my computer consulting business. Warren Whitlock and I are launching a DIYS Computer Maint. Guide, I see Warren as progressive, Eric Farewell has helped me tremendously with my focus, he is progressive and of course Ben Mack who seems ready to pour his heart into anyone who ask him for help.
Ken McArthur, the most loved man in internet marketing does not seem to differentiate between men and women when he agrees to work with a idea. He creates an impact no matter the gender.
Could all of us, myself included (even though I am a woman) learn a trick or two about selling to women, YES! I am completely open to what I might be missing in the female buying market!!
I encourage you to continue to enlighten us Donna, we are searching for ways to communicate with women.
Thanks for all you do,
Kim Burney
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Donna Fox Reply:
September 30th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
Ken is a big advocate of women, for sure. He’s one of the few internet marketers that actively provides a stage for new female speakers.
Funny, actually, that with the exception of your husband, the men you mentioned are all very good friends of mine. My life has also been vastly enriched by Ken, Ben, Warren and Eric.
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Kim - I think we’re onto some sort of Genetic Code of progressive men - it’s all in the NAME!
See another man named Dave/David mentioned.
I realized I listed 3 Daves in my comment above…
weird right?!
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Kim Burney Reply:
September 30th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Thanks @CoachDeb for acknowledging the Daves. Must be from the original kind spirit that our Daves derive from.
My personal Dave was my highschool sweet heart that waited for me 22 years to come back to PA and his only real comment was “what took you so long…” Gotta love those Daves. I married mine in 2000 after 22 years of being apart.
PS I look forward to meeting you sometime soon, Warren has had lots of good things to say about you - you seem to keep things on the right track, hummm sounds like a woman doesn’t it?
Kim
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Thx for the play-by-play, Donna!
Wish I could’ve been there too…
But kinda hard being halfway around the world!
I hope Kevin Finney represented me well
Altho I’m sure everyone was bummed he wasn’t me haha
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Donna Fox Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 7:22 am
Kevin did a great job networking on your behalf. You were very much missed, though.
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Interesting blog entry, that brings up a very complex topic. I can see both sides of the issue, as with any situation where affirmative action is contemplated. On the one hand, it’s nice to say that life’s a meritocracy and that if you just pick the best, you should be fine.
But that’s bogus because how people become visible in a professional setting, what form their visibility takes and who evaluates the “best” or “most visible” are all critical factors. Too often it’s men looking for more “like themselves” who then just are blind to the accomplishments and talents of women.
I know many, many top-notch professionals in the new media space and never really pay much attention to their gender, just as I couldn’t care less about their religious beliefs or sexual orientation.
But let’s be straight here, events like the woman-oriented BlogHer are just as bad in my book. There speakers are selected first based on their gender then secondly their knowledge or expertise. That’s better than when men do this same thing how, exactly?
That’s one reason why I always put effort into the planning of my own events to combat my blindness and ensure an interesting and valuable mix of gender, age, race, political views and any other dichotomy I can address.
Even my intimate Aloha Summit event (http://www.alohasummit.com/) has my co-host Andy Beal and I bringing together a world-class team of experts, where our final count is male: 3, female: 4. Not because of any affirmative action, but because of our desire to mix things up and identify the very best in each of the critical areas.
Ah, I can go on for a long time on this subject. Thanks for opening up this discussion. It’s an important one.
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Donna Fox Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 7:47 am
Hi Dave, Thanks for stopping by.
I’m of dual mind about “women” events. Well actually, I’m probably 4 or 5-minded about them. It’s one topic I will literally argue with myself over endlessly.
On one hand, it’s important to be proactive in the inclusion of women. Your approach for the Aloha Summit is a great one. You’re aware, sensitive, and provide a mix.
Women do learn and socialize differently when men aren’t around… just like men do when there are no women present. This is the primary reason why women-only-no-men kind of events are justified.
Personally, I believe like you, that an exclusionary approach is just as bad. It doesn’t matter that “men did it to us” for centuries. There’s no reason to make up for lost time socially to bring balance. Society is (at least should be) progressive, and we’re not bringing about change by advocating a backlash of exclusivity.
I’m not even advocating choosing women in an affirmative action sort of way. I don’t want promoters and coordinators to feel like the “have” to fill a space with a women just because.
Really, I want them to want to actively include women because it’s the right thing to do. Women provide a different and unique perspective. Your customers are women and like to buy from people like them.
It’s awareness that I’m striving for. See, if you ask me for the top women marketers I can rattle off a list of 20 or so without too much thought. Most can only come up with 2-3.
It takes and approach like you, Dave, with your awareness and positive efforts (which is really just a non-inflammatory way to say affirmative action) to really effect social progress.
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A woman “in your own right” you are royalty~ So is this the new glass ceiling?
Thank you Donna for this fine tale and representing women in the bold, straight forward, no nonsense, humor laden way you always do!
I’m honored to join you in celebrating XX chromosome marketing.
Blessing……In Peace,
Jeri
Alexandria Brown comes to mind
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Donna Fox Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 7:55 am
Hi Jeri
Yes, Ali Brown would have been an excellent choice as an attendee. There’s no question that she’s done very, very well as a marketer.
A few posts back we created a list of female internet marketing speakers specifically.
As I look through that list I wonder how many of them would be considered “successful” or “top” on someone’s list.
There are women making millions, women carving a new niche, women with incredible business systems, women with dynamic stage presences. Young ones, experienced ones, women of all shapes, sizes and colors. (except asian… where are the asian women?… but that’s another blog post…)
What does it take to be considered “top”?
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My first experience as a governor appointed member of the Colorado Women’s Economic Development Council was at my very first meeting where the very same bill that is once again being presented this election to do away with affirmative action was the topic of the meeting.
I was thrown into the fire and quickly educated by women who had been there before…well versed in the issue and asked to testify before the legislature as to why this seemingly antiquated practice was still needed.
Clinton was President at the time and having grown up in and around discrimination of the black race, he was well versed in the need for affirmative action and so in my research I found plenty of proof as to why we hadn’t reached a point in our history where it was no longer needed.
I also learned that the principles behind affirmative action are the same principles our own military, as well as unions have used and continue to use today. They just don’t call it that, but it is basically preferential treatment toward a segment of the population in order to affect change or reward people for acting in a certain manner.
Why is it necessary? Because those in positions of power and or money get so comfortable in their position and connections in life that any change represents a threat to their comfortable way of life.
That doesn’t mean that these people are bad or mean to exclude others from the same opportunities, but that they are quite comfortable with the status quo. To bring the issue that others may be excluded or ignored to the top of mind takes effort…sometimes A LOT of time and effort…hence Affirmative Action was born.
We would all like to think that in this day and age, we are all evolved enough to be able to NOT discriminate based on sex, race, religion, sexual preference, etc. But the truth is, it is human nature to do so. That’s why white males dominate the power positions of business, politics and religion.
The way I see it, it’s sort of like the Republican view of the “trickle down effect”.
It would be great if the highly educated, financially savvy and politically positioned people of the US would take their money (profits and investments) and use them to trickle down into the economy and other people who would become better off as a result of good stewardship, but I think the events as of late prove that greed and power mongering just take over the best of intentions. It’s JUST TOO seductive.
OK…so finally I come to my point. Come on Donna, you and I both know these guys are very comfortable in their roles as “the internet marketing players”. They keep saying they would love more women in the industry but what they really mean is that they wish there were more good looking women who would come to their parties after the seminars that they could flirt with or get to admire them for their skills and money.
A female “player” draws their attention for a short time and then once out of sight, out of mind.
So in my opinion, in order for women to compete in the male dominated industry of internet marketing it’s going to take MORE than just being damn good at what we do…it’s going to take the same effort and balls that the lawmakers have used for years passing laws to force the government, educational entities and businesses to PAY ATTENTION to those who become invisible unless someone is out there raising the sights and consciousness of those too engrossed in the race for dollars and stardom to see others wanting to jump into the game in a little bit different way.
At least there are more and more enlightened men who DO notice that the internet marketing industry just might be better off if the talents and skills of half of the population were mentored and valued AND partnered with instead of being ignored.
Web 2.0 is making an impact for women in places like facebook and twitter at a rapid pace. Women are DEFINITELY noticing other women in those communities and maybe that is the answer…for women to do more of their own events, promotions, JV’s in such a way that brings in the women as well as the enlightened guys (balance is good) and forget about trying to fit in with the “good ol’ boys”.
I know…quite the rant, but you go girl! Somebody has to be in their face! You do it well…Thanks from the rest of us.
LOVE
Deb Ducic
GutZy Woman
[Reply]
Donna Fox Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 8:05 am
Wow. Amazing comment Deb. Thank you so much for adding tremendous value to the conversation.
You’re right, some of the men really do want more women involved because they’d like to “double their dating”
(ok, so I was biting back that joke all weekend, and I just couldn’t hold it back any longer)
But what I’ve found is that after the initial flirtation-attraction-banter phase subsides (face it, most of us don’t know how to interact with the opposite sex without this)… it’s up to the women to artfully direct the conversation from banter to brainstorm and (gosh, I so hate to say it in light of the conversation I highlighted in my original post…
…here it goes…)
It’s up to the woman to move the conversation from playful to profit and demonstrate sound business value. It’s up to us to break their trance.
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Ryan Allaire Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 8:39 am
Hey Debbie,
long time since I’ve seen you.. I think it was last year at Lisa’s Seminar!! lol
hope ALL is going well!!
-Ryan Allaire
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Amusing, indeed!
So do ya suppose we’ll have to host a “Pink Room” Secret gathering of the 100 TOP female Internet marketers from among the many hundreds (thousands?) of excellent female marketers before the guys get it?
I’d have to guess that the women don’t show up on their radar because as more of the top female marketers talk about marketing to women, we find ourselves marketing quite effectively… in our own right ;-)to one another!
Whether listening to the insights of a Donna Fox and Why She Buys, Denise Michaels with Testosterone-Free Marketing, Marti Barletta with Marketing to Women, Kim Klaver aka Ms. Stud, Nicki Keohohou, co-founder and partner in charge of marketing for the DSWA or the scores of other brilliantly successful female marketers, we ARE finding ourselves on stages around the world…
perhaps we’re just tooting our horns to a tune they don’t recognize…
I appreciate your statement ==> I’d much rather see a change in values followed by a demand for consistent behavior.
And I see it coming too!!!
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Donna Fox Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 2:50 pm
A Pink Room sounds like fun. But frankly, I’d miss the men too much!
Also, if the pink room makes ME think of pajamas and pillow fights, I can imagine the jokes on the ‘net now.
Definitely one of the reasons women don’t show up on the radar is because they are often the primary care givers and household movers… and it’s difficult if not impossible for them to get away.
Which is why the women you do hear from a lot are either single or married with no kids. It’s much easier to make a career and fame a priority when we just have fewer of them.
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Donna,
Found the link to this post on Twitter. I’ll see you at Big Seminar.
I was at Eben’s Inner Circle last week and there were not alot of women their either.
Who cares? It is what it is. Currently, this arena is filled with men. You and I choose to play in it.
Is your business doing well? Are you having fun? I know you as an intelligent and smart marketer, and of course, you are a woman.
Which internet business ladies would you have liked to see in Chicago. Send Eben and all the guys this list of women to make sure they are invited and are considered for the speakers podium. Men’s attention process is different than women’s (it’s one of the huge differences in committed relationships as well as how men interact in the world of business… all in my book)
~Sherrie Rose
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Donna Fox Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 8:07 am
You bring up a fantastic point, Sherrie.
Blogging about the issue may not be enough. I like the idea of sending the male movers and shakers a list of female ones (with complete contact info).
How else can we proactively raise awareness?
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Donna Fox Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Oh, and also..
Who cares? I care. Because my peers and customers care. I heard “where are the women” almost daily. So first I listen, then I do something about it.
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Well, now I could have a *lot* to say about this but my friends, colleagues, and fellow Netizens have already covered most points.
A few more succinct points, to wit:
1. What “measures” of success are defined!? Just money? Media coverage? Actual IMPACT on people’s lives? Value to clients even?
2. What ever happened to what CLIENTS want?
3. There are many more “successful” women (and men) doing great things and business
on the Net than one might imagine; the style is often different - and - less vocal for women (on purpose).
As a lady who has “skyrocketed” in both the male-dominated worlds of military officers, then as a civilian in roles including “solo” business owner, IT Security Manager, and now Deputy CIO (yes, that’s a C-level executive position), I do count myself among these.
But, quite frankly, I don’t give a rat’s as$ or flying whatever if I’m ever invited into THE “club.” My clients, colleagues, and friends know me and know and appreciate the
value I deliver in each role for them.
AND, I can create my own club — so can YOU.
Summary: That’s my bottom line, ladies and gentlemen. My focus is on those *served.*
Next. Good discussions, Donna. In our own right? Ha. Oh, how familiar is that BS…
By the way, this definition of an industry and having a glass ceiling boggles my mind. There is NO ceiling and no formal business infrastructure, except the IT (technology).
IM is simply another way of marketing and communicating, and one way that forward-thinking, savvy *marketers* (note the absence of “gender” here) should consider as
just ONE element of their overall business plans. Think *offline.* Ah, but what do I know, eh? Silly me. Ha. Integration of
online/offline is good. Lean forward; fail fast. Ping me. (I’m sure we can think of some more humor for men and women to enjoy).
Have Fun,
Cheri
p.s. Donna, the “artist formerly known as” the “Unnamed Worm” now has a name (from my Long Beach trip) - the new name is “Pajama Worm.” There could be a story there; but wait, I’ll only tell it to the members of
the club. Now, see. Just kidding, ALL.
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Donna Fox Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 8:10 am
Here here! (or is it “Hear Hear!” I’ll have to look that one up too…)
I totally agree focus should be on those served. What does your audience want?
Maybe even more importantly, what do your untapped prospects want?
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P.S. Forgot to mention that Ken McArthur is one of the gentlemen *I* would mention as being “gender neutral” also. For Ken, it is about the deal and value delivered, it seems (not gender). I truly admire Ken McArthur!
For example, just this past weekend, Ken’s IMPACT Action Team of men and women shared the stage with Brendon Burchard, Marianne Williamson, John Gray, and Ken. Our team’s focus was spot on - focused on our project - www.SpeakUpSaveLives.org - not on “us.” I might also add that if you EVA (ever) get a chance to attend one of these events, GO.
So, one “takeaway” here might be that gender doesn’t matter online either; together, with a common goal and a valuable service to offer, men and women can do more great things ALWAYS. I’m thinking of another idea now. Donna, I’ll DM you on Twitter soon!
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Hi Donna,
Another of “the Daves” checking in…
(Great meeting you at BlogWorld, btw!)
While our percentages may not please all, 64 talented individuals in our list of presenters from BlogWorld ‘08 happened to be female.
(It’s almost 3 a.m. here, apologies if I’ve skipped anyone while doing my quick count tonight from our speakers list with tired eyes.)
From the beginning, we committed to nurturing a high quality educational, business and networking environment, and while cognizant of social pressures and scrutiny, the overarching intention was never to superficially craft a gender-balanced cast to pass critical review.
Coming from a family with a strong, educated Mom and growing up with an appreciative eye toward all who strive, I subscribe to the notion that parenting holds huge influence over the sexism issue. Not to oversimplify the debate, but I can’t relate to the “old boy’s club” mentality, and can only guess those that can came from somewhat of an archaic patriarchal environment. While some males are open-minded (I’d call it even-minded, and you’d call it progressive), it’s not welcome everywhere, and echoing Dave T, this a very complex topic. Regrettably, I can’t just blame the parents…
I attended a tech event earlier this year, and while I realistically couldn’t have had the same reaction as you, Donna, I did find myself at one point muttering “where are all the women?” when it became clear that most companies exhibiting were male-dominant. I began to wonder… “Was this because the organizers are male, or are more new tech companies launched by male entrepreneurs? Are women launching tech start-ups as often? Are there more guys in IT university curriculums, or is it an even mix of M/F? What about new media businesses…what’s the ratio of women-to-men? Are investors backing tech start-ups predominantly male, and are they trending toward backing male-led companies? What’s the story behind this?”…And quickly, the issue atomizes beyond my simplistic, lop-sided parenting attribution. Data can defend assumptions. Ratios can be extrapolated. The business landscape can be graphed, and debate will continue…
But the absolute is this. Quality rules.
That’s what I believe. It’s what I’m teaching my daughter, and my son. The tech events they attend in a few years will have a much more diverse crowd if I have anything to say about it.
Best Regards,
Dave Cynkin
Co-founder, CMO, Sleep Deprivationist & Thrill Seeker
BlogWorld & New Media Expo
[Reply]
Donna Fox Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 8:37 am
Beautiful comment, Dave.
Great meeting you at BlogWorld too!
Excellent job on the event.
“Quality rules.”
Gives me chills.
I do wonder if much of the dissension I’m feeling among my women peers, and the curiosity I’m experiencing from my male ones… both are markedly NEW in recent months.
See it used to be I was the only chick at a seminar and people would think that’s cool. They would NOT wonder where the other chicks were.
And women would be reading about a seminar or interview series or convention and not think twice about the experts being all male. Now, they grumble under their breath, and often decide not to attend/buy if they don’t feel represented.
That’s all new.
Interesting times we’re in now, aren’t they?
[Reply]
Dave Cynkin Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Thank you. It is an interesting time, definitely.
“…Now, they grumble under their breath, and often decide not to attend/buy if they don’t feel represented.”
I’m pretty opposed to that. More of the mind that you can change the fabric of a community (or event) by weaving yourself into it purposefully, and being instrumental with changes or improvements, rather than waiting for it to present the colors and patterns that suit you and then adopting it.
Your transition from being “the only chick at a seminar” to now hearing community members wondering where the other chicks are (expecting them to be present) is a good sign. It means that things are actually changing. That’s a pretty big deal, and the changes seem to be accelerating faster than some critics would admit.
But what do I know, I’m just a guy, so that limits my perspective.
Must go now. Get meat. Make fire.
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Maybe this is a cue to put together a networking group for the 100 top female internet marketers.
Off the top of my head, I can’t think of any female marketers who visibly have a big list and make significant amounts of money. (Except Lupe Garcia, who works with her husband, Carlos).
I can reel off a lot of women who are in the IM space, and participate in blogs and forums, but it’s really hard to tell who is making significant amounts of money just by what they post in forums and blogs.
I’m thinking that most of the really successful female marketers are quietly making their money in non IM-markets, doing JV’s with people in their own markets, and don’t need to “go public” with their success.
Anyway, my point is, if I can’t easily identify of anyone, why would Eben go out of his way to hunt down these female marketers and invite them?
Harris made an excellent comment that the invitees were the ‘top 100 or so internet marketers that Eben & some friends could think of at the time’.
Although your blog post was written with a very positive and humorous slant, comments I hear from women in IM seminars aren’t as positive as yours.
I recall one time I was chatting with another woman at a networking event and the host, a very well-known internet marketer came up to us to say hello. The first thing that came out of this other woman’s mouth was a demand to know why more women weren’t invited.
The answer was simple. Only those who had paid for the $4,995 seminar were eligible to attend the networking event.
The poor guy looked really uncomfortable, and left at the earliest opportunity I was embarrassed to be associated with a woman with that kind of attitude.
Yes, there’s a “boy’s club” in the IM world, and they seem to have some nice networking and masterminding events that I wouldn’t mind attending myself!
But, it’s “their” club, and if they don’t go out of their way to hunt down these elusive female millionaire marketers, they shouldn’t be criticized that.
I know that’s not what you’re doing, but so far, no one has pointed this out.
[Reply]
Donna Fox Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 8:47 am
Hi Rosie,
I’d be hard pressed to come up with a list of 100 top female internet marketers… but not because they aren’t out there.
I’d have trouble with defining what I considered to be “top”. In my book, any woman who can make a decent income on the internet while juggling a husband and kids is a top marketer!
On your other point, yes, I’m not being like the woman in your story, and I think I’ve met her in several iterations. It doesn’t do any good to get angry, or reactionary. I’m not a militant, I’m an activist. I’d like to effect change through positive action, including providing a safe forum for debate and sharing of all views.
Real talk. Real solutions. Real Progress.
Is that too much to ask?
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Donna, and all others that drop by. My organization is only three strong including myself. The two that I work with are female so I am definitely the minority. In fact for our organization you could say that I am labor and the women are management. For the products we deliver I wouldn’t have it any other way.
I create Project Management content, talk about Project Management at seminars, and do Project Management coaching. But it is @CCGAL that handles everything else. If someone wants me to speak at their event, they have to go thru her.
Donna, you go girl………….
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Donna Fox Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 8:50 am
It seems like lots of successful males pack their office with women.
What’s that quote, “behind every successful male…”
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Hey Donna,
Great Blog post.. you know where I come from so you prob already know my opinion / FACTS!!
I do agree, that their are a lot ‘Top Male IMers’.. But, their are tons of ‘Top lady Imers’ as well… like Lisa Diane, Elle Drake, your self, and i could go on and on (way over 20!!) that produce results that keep 20+ office staffs going (not including the crazy outsourcing), I’ve personally seen the money Lisa makes in an hour compared to most sales letter I read about these “guru’s HUGE launches / month pay periods”… I know numbers are thrown all around the nets and most people get sucked up in the ‘marketing’ of things and over look the real brains and operations behind the curtain.. In my case, a business worth in the high 8 figures!! Just because these ladies aren’t selling ‘money making products’ and packaging ‘Inspirational’ and other ‘info based’ products- and still using the ‘Internet to Market’ their products.. and making tons of money doing it!! So, I def feel for ALL the ladies that are making their dreams come true and continue to run their game, and succeed Online!!
-Ryan Allaire
[Reply]
Donna Fox Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 9:03 am
In a great sense of balance, it’s nice to hear from one of the strong men behind a successful woman.
Lisa and Elle are both interesting examples. They are being quietly successful(by a financial standard of success), and largely go unnoticed.
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First of all, I would like to compliment the men on their ability to force “their eyes to just float over [your] head”, instead of doing that chest stare thing. Well done, gentlemen.
I think we had this discussion about a year ago talking about how few women are invited to speak at events. People work with people who are most like them. Men automatically think of men, women automatically think of women. It is a natural inclination and a pitfall in all marketing. You handled the situation brilliantly. Women need to keep their sense of humor while maintaining their professional presence. Most of the men I know are rooting for the women in their lives. Reminding them that women deserve to be at these events without jamming it down their throats creates a better result for all.
The operative word in the last sentence is DESERVE. The invitations to that event were earned, for the most part. In marketing, we talk about making our product or service the ONLY choice, the no brainer decision. Our job as women is to make ourselves so successful that we become an automatic invitee, a must have, to these events. That particular event had an earnings threshold that had to be met in order to be invited. We need more women to meet and exceed that threshold AND to be visible with our success. Success and visibility will result in more invitations to top level speaking engagements and events like this.
Kudos to Ben Mack, who appears to me to be tall, dark, handsome and mysterious as well as damn smart.
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Donna Fox Reply:
October 1st, 2008 at 2:57 pm
I don’t have much of a chest to stare at Barbara, so that makes it easier!
Deserve is a good word… fun to play with. Because I think there could be many “tops” in the business without the financial reward attached. And others who no matter how great the reward, don’t deserve the distinction (think spammers and other filth).
The easiest way to make sure you win the game is to influence the rules to play to your strengths. How would the list of “tops” look if life balance or relationship building were the measures?
As for Ben Mack, I just adore the man, can’t say enough good things about him. One of only a handful of men I know who is able to say “I love you” to a relative stranger, and mean it.
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Thoroughly enjoyed this post…so much so I decided to add a post to the Women’s Work blog.
Personally, I don’t think the lack of female participation is intentional. I can only speak from my own experience, but I don’t have the time to go to these events. I am a mom, wife, business owner already juggling way to much as it is. I don’t have time nor is it important to me at this stage of my life to attend these kinds of events.
What the Internet has brought to me is the opportunity to have a career that is both flexible and rewarding. Referring to Cheri’s comments, it’s not important to me whether my efforts are recognized by a group of people I don’t know. My customers and my family are my primary focus now. Maybe it will change when my son is off to college…maybe not.
’til then I will Google, Twitter and purchase the training I need from the IM gurus, male or female. I just don’t have the time to do anything more.